SPIDER-FRIENDS.COM - Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends

Q) On the '81 solo Spider-Man show, Spider-Man & his Amazing Friends, & the '82 Hulk cartoon you are credited in "Layout". I think most people understand what storyboards are and how they are used, but for the uninitiated, such as myself, what exactly is involved in the layout process?

Boyd Kirkland: Storyboards are small rough sketches establishing camera angles and scene continuity, and function as the "blueprint" for the show. Layouts are full-scale drawings based on the storyboards. The scene's components are broken down into different "cel levels," with all the camera mechanics worked out. For example, the background is drawn on the bottom level. Animation (characters, props - anything that moves) is drawn on other levels, separating elements that overlap. Foregrounds are drawn on the top level. Camera field sizes, start and stop positions for "pans" or "zooms" are all worked out. Usually, all extreme poses required by the character movement are drawn in proper scale and registration with the background. Sometimes backgrounds are long drawings that "pan" behind the animation to convey the sense of movement. A big part of our job was designing these backgrounds, as we usually got very little reference from the studios. Here is an old layout from Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends (be kind - I was still learning how to draw back then!). I've compressed the various levels here into one illustration:

Boyd Kirkland's layout for the costume party in the episode "Triumph of the Green Goblin"

Q) I can only imagine, given your interests as a teen, what it must have felt like to actually be working on a Spider-Man or Hulk cartoon. How did it feel to be working on something that you had admired as a fan? Were others that you were working with comic book fans as well?

Boyd Kirkland: Yes, it was pretty exciting to try my hand at drawing characters I loved as a kid. It was also a very humbling experience, as I quickly realized how little talent I had in comparison to the comic book artists I admired. It took me several years of drawing before I started feeling like I knew what I was doing. College hadn't taught me the skills I needed to do the job. Many of us were drawn to this work because we were comic book or animation fans as kids. And it was always a real kick the first year or two to get up on Saturday mornings and see your work and name on TV. The novelty of that soon wore off, though. Even doing something you love can become laborious when you do it every day, and it becomes a means of paying the bills and supporting your family.

Another exciting experience for me was meeting Stan Lee. He visited our studio in Salt Lake City one year, and really pumped up the whole crew by telling us how important

our work was to Marvel. I've since had the opportunity of working with him on other occasions here in LA.

I never got to meet Jack Kirby during my work, but did greet him as a fan at a San Diego Comic Convention. I loved looking at his storyboards for the DePatie- Freleng Fantastic Four show, which we drew layouts for. He also did some inspired designs for Thundarr the Barbarian, which were fun to draw.

Layout from the episode "The Crime of all Centuries"

Q). Was any of your original layout art drastically altered for a finished episode and if so, what circumstance caused the most frustration?

Boyd Kirkland: Not really. Sometimes the animators would improve on our character drawings and get them more "on-model" than we inexperienced layout artists could do. Other times, they would "flatten out" the perspective, making things less dramatic (but easier for them to animate). Sometimes, it was disappointing to see really slipshod paintings of backgrounds, that lost lots of detail, etc. from the layouts we had labored over. But since most of these shots were only on screen for a few seconds, I can see why underpaid and overworked background painters didn't want to labor over them.

Q). Some comic book fans are quite vocal in their dislike of the translation of their favorite comic into television cartoons. What's your philosophy on the changes made from an original source material to a new medium? And what was your opinion of the changes made in the Marvel cartoons of the 80s? For the record, I just want to state that X-MEN: EVOLUTION has more charm & appeal in a 5 minute segment than the entire Fox animated series did!

Boyd Kirkland: Anytime you translate something from one medium into another, changes and adaptations have to be made. Things that work well in a comic or novel don't always translate well to film. Each medium has its own strengths and weaknesses. Then there's also the limitations and realities of TV budgets, schedules, and children's broadcast standards...

During the 80's (and before), the networks were very skittish about "action" shows because of pressures from activist groups concerned with violence in children's programming. Whatever did make it on the air had to be extremely watered down from the comics. Since I wasn't involved at the story level in those days, it wasn't particularly frustrating for me because I was happy just to be drawing the stuff! I remember that the Hulk was particularly problematic, because of what he's all about - destruction! For example, when he knocked down a wall, he had to do it with an open

Firestar!

hand (not with a fist)! That's how ridiculous some of the network's rules were. The writers and storyboard artists really struggled to interject action and excitement into the shows given all the limitations. I recall that the Spider-Man solo series had stories that were much more faithful to the comics. Its content also wasn't quite as policed because it was syndicated. Spider-Man & His Amazing Friends, however had more "network" restrictions and impositions (they insisted

that it had to have a dog in it, for example - the usual network stereotype). It originally hit me as being an odd concept, since it varied so much from the comics. But it turned out to be a very entertaining show, mostly because of the humor in it. I just remember The Hulk being a lot more work because of all the crowd scenes and destruction! And it was tough drawing Rick Jones in that cowboy hat!

Thanks for the compliment about X-Men: Evolution. It's disheartening to read negative comments from fans who were disappointed because it varied from the X-Men comic book canon. But as I explained above, that always happens with network kids' shows. In many ways, however, I thought the show was more character driven, "mature" and intelligent than most other incarnations in spite of that. We always tried to strike a balance between action, humor, pathos, and soap opera to keep it varied and interesting within the framework the network limited us to. I didn't want to just retell watered-down versions of comic book stories where the comic fans would already know the outcome.

Q) How do you feel that storytelling methods have changed between 1980s and modern super-hero animation?

Boyd Kirkland: I think we really turned a corner in the early 90's with the Batman Animated Series. Fox Kids was trying to put itself on the map, and so was willing to take more chances and gave us more leeway regarding the content. Warner Bros. also was very supportive, giving us about twice the time and money usually spent on this kind of stuff. All that, and many very talented people all came together to create something very good that appealed to a much broader audience than most kids' TV. Ever since then, everyone else has been trying to play catch-up. Unfortunately, with the proliferation of channels on cable TV, it's getting harder and harder for studios to justify spending as much money on the shows because the audience sizes have been dwindling. Also, on many outlets, the "watchdog" pendulum has begun swinging back to the more conservative side.

Computers have helped improve the quality & efficiency of the work in many ways, from coloring the animation to editing and post production effects, sound and music. Consequently, we can be far more ambitious in many ways, even though budgets are dwindling.

Storytelling hasn't really changed that much, except that today's audiences who've been weaned on MTV expect things to move much faster on screen than ever before (but that's not necessarily a good thing, in my opinion). Good storytelling depends on fundamentals that will always remain the same.

Q) You have had an amazing career and have been involved in many aspects of the animation process. At what level did you find the most satisfaction creatively?

Boyd Kirkland: Each step in the process has it's own rewards and challenges. Drawing layouts really improved my basic drawing skills, teaching me a lot about perspective, posing, line of action, etc., as well as the general mechanics of the animation process. When I moved from layout into storyboards, that was very exciting. It's like being the director and cinematographer in live action, as you get to visualize the film from the script. There were many things to learn about staging, scene continuity, acting, visual pacing, economizing for time and simplicity, etc. But the more storyboards I drew, the more I realized how important a good script was to the whole process. I also grew to appreciate the importance of timing. Many good scenes I had visualized were ruined by being timed too fast or too slow. So it was really great when I became a director and had more control of those aspects of the process.

Shanna of the Jungle

As a director on Batman, I would go over all the storyboards, making revisions and improvements; "slug" the storyboard, determining the timing of each shot; attend recording sessions, making suggestions about the vocal performances; review the layouts, improving staging, character posing, determine timing of camera moves, movement of cel levels, etc; and I also checked the timing sheets, reviewing the breakdown of all animation movement, lip sync, scene transitions, etc. When the film came back from the studio overseas, I also worked with the editor to cut the show and call retakes. But other aspects of the process were still beyond my control.

As a producer, I finally had some say about the initial development of the project, and had input into the writing and storytelling process. I also art directed the shows, controlling designs, color, background styling, etc. The producer also helps determine the voice cast, oversees the recording sessions, hires the crew, determines with the business manager the various sub-contactors including the animation studio, as well as supervises the post production process, including music scoring, sound dubs, and on-lining where the final master print is made. The producer is also responsible for ensuring that everything gets done on time and on budget.

Q) What would be your absolute dream project and what superhero would you most like to have a show about?

One of Boyd's layouts from The Incredible Hulk.

Boyd Kirkland: Of course, I've been envious of the large budgets and expansive production schedules lavished on many animated feature films. I've often thought how wonderful it would be to have that kind of time and money devoted to an action-adventure cartoon. The closest things to it are several Japanese anime features, such as Laputa: Castle in the Sky, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, etc. The Little Nemo: Adventures in Slumberland film I worked

on for TMS was also very ambitious. But all of those projects had relatively humble budgets by Disney standards. Unfortunately, the poor box office results of Disney and Dreamworks' recent forays into more action-oriented fare such as Atlantis, Treasure Planet, and Sinbad, have doomed any more of those being made in the near future. I still believe that a well-produced superhero or fantasy film would do well in animation. After all, a large percentage of footage in such live-action films is computer animation these days.

I also like the long-form story-telling opportunities of feature length projects. And there are far fewer restrictions regarding the content than we have to contend with on TV. I think that enough people have grown up with video games, cartoons, comics, etc., that a much broader audience exists out there for something like this than most people think. It's mostly a matter of telling an entertaining, compelling story in an exciting way.

Picking a particular superhero as a favorite would be difficult. You could tell great stories with many of them. But if money were no object, I have often thought that a Tales of Asgaard featuring Thor would be great to see on the big screen. The Galactus story from the Fantastic Four would also be wonderful. There are also many great fantasy novels I've read over the years with great characters that would work well in epic films. I was thrilled to see what Peter Jackson did with The Lord of the Rings trilogy, demonstrating that there is an audience for fantasy if it's done well.

Q) At the time of this interview, Disney has given up on their traditionally animated theatrical features due to computer animation being extremely popular. At the risk of being stoned, I'm going to state my personal opinion on what I think is going to happen. MANY years down the road, I see traditional animation becoming what stop-motion films have become: Occasional, and not an "industry" that a large number of people could

A typical city background from the solo Spider-Man cartoon.

survive in. With that opinion in consideration, what do you think? Stone if you must.

Boyd Kirkland: Unfortunately, you're probably right, mostly because management no longer wishes to support traditional animation. As I stated above, I still think there's an audience for it. It has more to do with good story telling than with the medium being used. Final Fantasy demonstrated that. Each medium has something to recommend it. Pixar has been very smart about picking subject matter that takes advantage of the strengths of CGI, while avoiding its weaknesses. Traditional artistic mediums can create atmospheres and moods that are impossible to convey with photography or slick CGI. Who wants to see a CGI version of Beavis and Butthead, for example? Would you get the same sensibilities expressed by those extremely crude drawings? I don't think so.

Q) Any chance you'll spill the beans about that new Marvel project you're working on?

Boyd Kirkland: I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you! No, actually we always sign confidentiality agreements with the companies we work for to prevent competitors from stealing or upstaging ideas, and to control the publicity, etc. I'm sure Marvel will release the details when the timing is right for them. But I think I can safely say that it will make a lot of Marvel Comic fans extremely happy!

I can't wait! Boyd, it has been a pleasure talking to a man of your stature. I hope you realize the amount of joy that you bring to others!

Excelsior!